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Comment from: Richard Barrow Email · http://www.richardbarrow.com
Thanks Steve for bringing us this interesting story. I think most people would agree (Thai students as well) that Thai history books in schools are just full of nationalistic propaganda. A lot of history has been re-written. In particular everything before the fall of Ayutthaya as (allegedly) the Burmese burnt all historical records. It is nice having stories and legends (look at King Arthur) but people don't really want their entire history to be based on a lie.
2007-11-27 @ 10:24
Hi Steve,

What!? You mean that entire reenactment I witnessed in Suphanburi was based on a lie?! I'm scandalized!

Indeed, there was a letter to the editor at The Nation the other day from regular correspondent Sunida about this very topic. She said that most Thais know that the story around Loy Krathong is made up, and that the TAT (on advice from those irksome FOREIGNERS) was largely responsible for disseminating the idea that it is some sort of Buddhist ritual with historical import. Like most Thai festivals, she wrote, it is in reality an occasion to celebrate the end of a long season of work, and enjoy.

Thanks for an interesting glimpse into Thai culture. Good Nation piece this week btw on gambling. Sure it will make an appearance here shortly.

Cheers,
Noel
2007-11-27 @ 12:12
Comment from: Stephen Cleary Email
Thanks Richard and Noel for your comments Don't get me wrong Noel, the great battle between Naresuan and the Burmese Prince probably did happen. It just didn't happen in Suphanburi. From evidence recovered it was in Phanom Thuan district of Kanchanaburi. Prince Damrong simply made the story of the battle up about it happening in Don Chedi as there was a nice pagoda there he had recently discovered.

Sure, last Saturday's article about gambling will be up soon. I posted this first though, as it is more time relevant.
2007-11-27 @ 12:51
Comment from: Silaphine Mow Laew Email
Makes sense the battle would have taken place in Kanchanaburi, due to its far more strategically important location towards Ayutthaya.

As for Thai history being based on nationalistic propaganda, we all know about that one.

Spot on, Steve!
Keep 'em coming.
2007-11-27 @ 13:53
Comment from: oakmonster · http://www.oakmonster.com
I actually visited the spot in Kanchanaburi where the "Don Chedi" battle was supposed to happen. Well, according to our driver, a Karnchanaburi native, it's the fields around where the Naraysuan monument is. Tada!

I always wonder why we would thanking the Goddess of Water by polluting her rivers with kratongs. Actually, Brandon raised the same question when we tried to float our kratongs--made of paper plates and construction paper, as always--in the marina the other night. (What does it mean if your kratongs actually came back to shore, by the way? LOL.) Floating the lanterns up into the air make a heck of a lot more sense.
2007-11-27 @ 14:13
Steve that is a great history lesson, even if it is modern history! I never would have figured that out on my own, I thank you. Great image choice is that your own editing work adding the title? Well done either way. Looking forward to the next lesson. :)
2007-11-27 @ 14:40
Comment from: Stephen Cleary Email
Glad yous enjoyed the history lesson, i doubt the Ministry of Culture will appreciate it though. Wow, Joshua liked the image! I think i got it out of my wife's brochure she was designing for her school, not sure exactly, i simply found it on my com!
2007-11-27 @ 14:45
Comment from: Khun Don Email
I think one has to go elsewhere than Cambodia for the origins of this type of festival-India and the Ganges, or more specifically, Varanassi during the Diwali festival, where lights in little containers are floated on the Ganges at night.
Possibly this festival- or something similar- arrived in Cambodia during the Dvarati period-a heavily Indianised culture that pre-dated the Khmers. There maybe the possibility something similar took place at Sukhotthai and later died out,as modern Cambodian and Thai cultures have many simularities, even today-but no irrefutable proof of, course, as anything written on less than stone has rotted away long ago.
Smart money-spinning move on behalf of the Thai Ministry of Culture,though!
2007-11-27 @ 17:39
Comment from: betti Email
even if Loy Krathong in its recent form is a relatively new invention, I'm sure it was based on something related but different, I don't think it just came out of thin air. holidays and festivals evolve. ok, lying is nasty. - Steve, I really like your articles. very enlightening. and you just strike the right balance all the time, criticising but expressing your love and appreciation for Thailand as well.

btw, if you think khom loys are more environmentally friendly, you should see the burnt out "carcases" all over Chiang Mai :-) krathongs are made of banana leaves and stalk, no styrofoam, not that much pollution overall I think.
2007-11-27 @ 18:34
Your enthusiasm for sharing entertainingly written observations and insights into the cloaked intricacies of Thai culture is inspiring Steve.

With regards to the environmental gratong issue, our local waterways were flooded with candlelit buns of yellow, blue and pink coloured bread!
2007-11-27 @ 20:11
I agree with Michael, it is Steve's brave tendencies that make the writing so much more impressive considering the locale.
2007-11-28 @ 05:49
Comment from: BUCKY Email
Actually I think (most)Thai know the festival are made up. My girlfriend is the one who told me about it during the festival. But she said it originated from India or something? I think the flying lantern thing came from China though. In China, its call "Kong Min tern" invented by the famous Zhuge Kong Min during the 3 Kingdom Era.... I think... :p
2007-11-29 @ 10:02
Comment from: Stephen Cleary Email
Yeah... i'm sure, as Don pointed out, that the original Loy Khom festival evolved from the Hindu Divali festival. Well, really, it has to be Indian as the Goddess of Water (River) is directly translated from Thai as The Goddess of The Ganges. Going on from what Betti said, even though the tradition is a newly invented one doesn't mean that it is not part of Thai culture. And again, in response to Betti's comment, sure there are times when i criticize what i see, but i attempt to do it constructively. Just weighs up all the good stuff i write about the country.
I'm certain that both the Ministries of Education and Culture aren't always too pleased about me 'spilling the beans' a lot, but i think it's only fair that this kinda stuff gets written into English from time to time. Anyway, just cause a lot of us are closer to the real truth of Loy Krathong now, doesn't make us less appreciative of this lovely tradition.
2007-11-29 @ 10:30
Comment from: Spasso Email
Very informative Steve, more and more of your blogs just blow me. You should get a job working for the Ministry of Culture.
2007-11-29 @ 17:39
Comment from: Mike Email
Like many Thai traditions, Loy Krathong
has roots in India, with Divali. Check
a few references, like Wikipedia...LOL

You are quite correct about Thailand's cultural minions not wanting to face
reality. Just look at Thai
'Traditional' clothing. Topless was the fashion until WWII and still occurs in
some rural areas....
2007-11-29 @ 20:56
Comment from: Simon Ws Email
What do you mean Mike that we should check for references in Wikipedia LOL? If you believed all that Wiki says about Loy Krathong, you would be mistaken that the festival's origin are in the Sukhothai period. This blog here has already dispeled any gibberish beliefs.

There are still some areas in Thailand where the women go topless? Do you mean the go-go bars? As i hope you don't mean in the Thai countryside
2007-11-30 @ 08:51
Comment from: Bergen Email
Please post GPS locations of areas of
Thai countryside with topless women. I
need to get that information onto
Wikipedia. Thanks in advance.
2007-12-01 @ 22:55
Comment from: owee Email
I am not thai and neither raised in thai but i am very interested in thai culture and history. However as I dig more into the history of thai, it mostly goes as far as sukithai and nothing afterwards.

I also notice a lot of avoidance to linking anything of their culture to their pre sukhothai ancestors.

I don't see why the thai government does not correct their mistakes. Don't you think it makes them look better if they admitted their faults. It can probably help make their neighbors appreciate them more.
2008-01-11 @ 06:55
Quite interesting, and makes sense from a historical point of view.

In terms of the Thais not rushing to adopt the to-the-letter history, they are hardly by themselves.

George Washington did NOT cut own any cherry tree, and Abraham Lincoln did NOT grow up in a log cabin. The actual US history books, currently used in classrooms, are quite full of holes.

The Pope recently made a speech condemning "seductive science", continuing a mellinia-long tradition of denying truth and reason for political gain.

Caesar Augustus made a concerted effort to create a 'Roman" identity that simply did not exist before him. One of the primary reasons Julius Caesar was assassinated was because he gave the vote to the Northern Italians, who were QUITE different from the Southern Italians at the time...

So, the fact that the Davarati period was actually a Hmong kingdom, that Nakhon Si Thammarat was a Malay city staty up until a few hundred years ago - They actually attacked Sri Lanka, and almonst won, except they fell victim to a switch of allegience on the battlefield, I believe by the Tamils, but I could be wrong) That (major) loss weakened them and postitioned them for a vassal relationship to Sukhothai. The famous Wat on the back of the 25 satang coin was not actually built by Thais. They are 100% Thai now, though. And thats what really matters.

Most of the building in Iseal attributed to King David was actually due to the influx of funds from Nebuchanezzar (guarding against the Egyptians).

Christmas would be hardly recognizable to those from a mere century ago.

Its not shameful to have historical records change. Its par for the course. Hopwever, history is an extremely useul political tool, so history is always going to be subject to those who write the books. (Heres to the internet+the free flow of information!!)
2008-02-17 @ 11:09
Comment from: Rumela
****-
Thank you for this informative blog. that was an interesting read indeed. The Thai culture is indeed vibrant and Loy Krathong is undoubtedly the most beautiful festival of the country. This is just like deepavali in India.
2009-03-24 @ 12:27

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